An Interesting Post From Edward Copeland's Institute For Lower Learning

Conversation Between Keith Olbermann & Craig Crawford

OLBERMANN: As the Bush administration continues to evermore resemble the character Sideshow Bob from "The Simpsons," forever stepping on another rake, its primary issue is not the rake nor why it keeps leaving them on the ground, nor even the cleaning up they were meant for. These people are much more worried about who had the audacity to reveal the existence of the rakes in the first place.

Our lead story on the COUNTDOWN, the Bush administration on the hunt for anyone who might have leaked word of the NSA domestic spying program to the media. Amid further word tonight that there may even be more secret spying going on than thought previously. Absent any hint of irony, the administration launching several investigations to nab any federal official who may have blown the whistle on its warrant-free surveillance programs, as well as its secret CIA prisons.

President Bush, you will recall, calling the NSA leak a, quote, "shameful act" that was, quote, "helping the enemy." Nevermind the members of his own senior staff who saw fit to leak the name of a covert CIA operative, mainly because her husband had said something critical about he White House.

The "Washington Post" reported that dozens of employees at the CIA, NSA and other intelligence agencies have been interviewed by the FBI already. At the same time, the Justice Department warning reporters that they could be prosecuted under espionage laws.

Pretty soon Senator Arlen Specter could find himself being investigated for this. The Republican from Pennsylvania saying today he might call Attorney General Alberto Gonzales back before his Judiciary Committee for another round of questioning because of his concerns that there might be more secret surveillance programs.

Senator Specter is wondering what Mr. Gongales was referring to in a letter he had sent the committee after his testimony last month, in which he wrote, quote, I did not and could not address any other classified intelligence activities. And another rake hits somebody in the forehead.

Time now to call in our own Craig Crawford, columnist for "Congressional Quarterly," and author of "Attack the Messenger: Hop Politicians Turn You Against the Media."


OLBERMANN: ... Now the administration threatening to prosecute reporters who uncover the misdeeds and the wrongdoing of the Alien and Sedition Acts, that repassed in the weekend I was away from my computer?

CRAWFORD: It's like the old Ben Bradlee in "All the President's Men." It's not like any of this matters, except maybe for the Constitution and the future of the country. This idea that the government has criminalized leaks leads to us a place where the only get is official information. We've all seen talking points. We know that's not very informative.

OLBERMANN: What happened to First Amendment and freedom of the press, if we're go in those Bradley-an terms? Or if you are the leaker, what happened to the Whistleblower Act?

CRAWFORD: Well, I wrote in my book that the politicians had won the war against the media. These are the spoils of victory, Keith. Partly, we have a court system that makes it possible to put reporters in jail if they don't reveal their sources. It really does raise the question, is there any freedom of the press left if that sort of activity is considered criminal?

OLBERMANN: And there's an extra dimension, of course. Any time you see something like this attempted in a government—in this country or any other, you turn black into white and white into black, leaking the existence of secret CIA prisons or domestic spying that may or may not be legal, but certainly is without warrant, those acts, that's illegal, but leaking the name of a covert CIA operative whose husband criticized the administration is not illegal. How—what's the consistency here? Where do we get...

CRAWFORD: There isn't any. It's called situational ethics, I believe. And we have gotten to a place, I think, where, you know, democracy is threatened when the freedom of the press in this context, in the protection of sources so that we get independent information that is independent of government spin and propaganda, that is the essence of democracy. I don't think you have a democracy without a free press, and I don't think you have a free press with a legal system like we have now. There's an irony in that we are exporting democracy abroad and cutting a major artery of our own democracy here at home.

OLBERMANN: Yes, maybe we should serve here before we start shipping. The senators charged Mr. Specter today that there could be other secret surveillance programs based on what the attorney general had written. First of all, do we fear he might right? Or is it sour grapes because he was not consulted about the spying, or what is behind all this?

CRAWFORD: I think there's a big issue with members of Congress, Republican leaders. So many Republican senators, Keith, I've always found—and Democrats, too, as a matter of fact, consider themselves senators first, protecting their branch of government, and then secondly their members of their party and protecting their president in power.

And then you have the interesting dynamic often in Washington, when even leaders in Congress who have a president from their own party, eventually there's conflict because of that traditional balance of power, the hostility between the branches.

So I think what's happening is a lot of members of Republicans in Congress are beginning to realize the Bush era is almost over, and they're starting preparing for the next era, and positioning themselves to be in power for that.

OLBERMANN: The Katrina tapes last week, specifically the release by the administration officials, or White House sources was the way "Newsweek" had put to the reference to the transcripts of the tapes from August 29 that put the president in a good light, not this stuff from the day before, which we're looking at here now.

But would it be a stretch to say that had someone in the administration take it upon himself, or herself, to leak that one tape before and absence of any of the other ones being leaked that that person might be under investigation right about now for releasing something the White House claimed was protected by executive privilege?

CRAWFORD: I wouldn't have foresaw the idea that there will be investigations of the leaks of tapes they didn't want released, as opposed to those that did.

We have an administration here that is really conducting a war on information that they don't want out, and those who disseminate information they don't want out. And I really think it's become a fairly serious matter.

OLBERMANN: Fortunately, the August 28th tapes were handed out by FEMA. So the idea where there was this huge crush to try to secretize everything, make secret every thing that the White House wants secret. Unfortunately, there's another branch of government that just sort of throwing tapes out there. So perhaps our best defense against infringement on democracy is the stupidity of the people trying to infringe upon it.

CRAWFORD: Always. It's still as we said before, a good time to reread George Orwell.

OLBERMANN: And yes, it's a quick read.